Curse

Crom The Pale · May 31, 2008, 11:51 AM // 11:51

I still have to say that today's gamers are so spoiled they often overlook just how good they have it.

I grew up playing RPG's on the Comodore64 and Nintendo, were talking Might and Magic, Final Fantasy(the original), G I Joe and Castlevainia.

I remember a long break between playing any video games and then finding myself in AWE of FF7 on the playstation. I can actually recall thinking "This is as good as its ever gonna get!".

Now we have GuildWars, some of the best graphics and user interfaces I have every come across. A game that I have played for 3 years and put more hours into than all of the Final Fantasy games COMBINED!

After all that has been stated we still feel as though we are not getting the best, that this game is lacking in some respects. That is a good thing, to strive for perfection, to keep looking for improvements. However we must not lose sight of just how far we have come and how great this game is just as it is.

Like Final Fantasy before it, GuildWars has become a foundation game that all other games will be measured against.

Though it looks like I've wandered way off topic let me pull it together...

If future games are going to be based upon or inspired by GW then GuildWars must contain as broad of an appeal as can be created. To this end they must create a very simplistic PvE environment that caters to those just starting, as well as some rewards and challenges to long time players. It must contain both entry level and high end PvP play and everything must work bug free.

To this end I feel they have come very close to perfection, based upon where I began and where I see games going in the future.

aapo · May 31, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Now this is where I'm a bit confused: they don't really do this in the World of Warcraft.

- It has nothing to do with newbies. Do you even realize how much reputation is worth? Blizzard makes one success story after another. When they make a patch, it's not like some kid trying ice with a stick and letting community to be betatesters without wages. Nothing can change our view of ANET as bad management company. They will release GW2, it has some new tricks and will appeal to some people for a while. And after two years it all falls apart. Mark my words.

fenix · May 31, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I'd be really impressed if ANet produced some content that was crushingly difficult, and no one could beat it. It'd show they at least had some balls left.

But they won't. Sucks.

DoA when they released it. NO ONE could beat it, complained for ages, so they nerfed it pretty hardcore. Now it's easymode. Reverting back to the original state that it was in, would make every current DoA Ursan team cry lakes of tears.

Tyla · May 31, 2008, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

DoA when they released it. NO ONE could beat it, complained for ages, so they nerfed it pretty hardcore. Now it's easymode. Reverting back to the original state that it was in, would make every current DoA Ursan team cry lakes of tears.

Wasn't it the Mantra of Frost / Greater Conflag / Winter build in use there at the time?

Or was that after they removed the enviroment effects? Or was it even harder?

Because if it was, I call for a revert.

Dr Strangelove · May 31, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I really don't know what ANet's done with this.

As much as it pissed me off when Mallyx was bugged to shit, it was interesting because he was hard.

Now, there is nothing my guild and I can't annihilate in less than an hour. It's pathetic. That whole "post your fastest elite times" is indicative of this nonsense. We're not supposed to be able to blow through FoW in an hour.

I'd be really impressed if ANet produced some content that was crushingly difficult, and no one could beat it. It'd show they at least had some balls left.

But they won't. Sucks.

Part of the problem is that they don't know how to make hard content, they just make really big numbers. DOA is a classic example of this. None of the mobs have particularly good bars, they just have really big numbers for hp and damage. Other than that, they're the same dumb monsters with the same dumb vulnerabilities.

Some of the dungeons in EOTN would actually be decent at this, especially the dwarves in slaver's exile. However, by that point they made monsters in normal mode cluster happily on a tank, and added PvE skills in case anyone was having trouble in hard mode.

Snow Bunny · May 31, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Some of the dungeons in EOTN would actually be decent at this, especially the dwarves in slaver's exile.

Slaver's exile would've been perfect for this.

Quaker · Jun 02, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

This brings me to the meat of my point: If catering to the "newbie" is supposed to give you the most financial success, why is WoW doing so good, and why has ANet had to do this with Guild Wars? Why has ANet had to essentially "dumb down" the difficulty of their game? Why does ANet has to cater to the inexperienced and not Blizzard?

Catering to the newbie brings ANet financial success - not the generic "you".

WoW's financial model is based around monthly fees. It is in their best interests to keep players wanting to play each month. That is why there is always something new (to you) to strive for - so you'll pay month after month. WoW doesn't want anyone blowing through the content in a month and then quiting.

GW's financial model is based upon sales of the game. They generate no income from on-line play, so their financial model is for you to play through the content you bought, then have you buy another "campaign" or "expansion". This model does not cater to long-time experienced players. And, they may have (by studying their user base) come to the conclusion that, the easier the game becomes, the more people buy it. Or, at least, the more people buy it who haven't already bought it.
If GW charged monthly fees for their present content, it would be a vast wasteland of empty servers by now.

Bryant Again · Jun 02, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Blizzard makes money from monthly fees, A-net from sales of new accounts.

Try economics 101 for dummies

I'm not regarding the $ it makes per month, but how it's able to hold onto - i.e. satisfy, i.e. keep happy - such a large number of players for so long *while* keeping the end-game content and raids rather lengthy and tough to reach. As stated before, a very small minority of the playerbase has ever complete a high-end raid. How is WoW able to cater so many resources and polish to a portion of the game that so few people will see yet can still keep people happy?

And it's not like people continue to play "in strive of" entering a raid. Most have never even begun the attunements, showing that they care little for raids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

All these changes do is pump a few more bullets into the bloody corpse of "skill over time".

That's actually the crux of the problem. Why did it have to die in the first place?

Stockholm · Jun 02, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm not regarding the $ it makes per month, but how it's able to hold onto - i.e. satisfy, i.e. keep happy - such a large number of players for so long *while* keeping the end-game content and raids rather lengthy and tough to reach. As stated before, a very small minority of the playerbase has ever complete a high-end raid. How is WoW able to cater so many resources and polish to a portion of the game that so few people will see yet can still keep people happy?

And it's not like people continue to play "in strive of" entering a raid. Most have never even begun the attunements, showing that they care little for raids.

That's actually the crux of the problem. Why did it have to die in the first place?

Economics 101.
The monthly fees Blizzard charges gives them the edge, they can afford more staff and there for they can work on more content at diffrent levels.
And people tend to stay with a game when they have to keep a subscription going or lose the account.
As I said Economics 101.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 02, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's actually the crux of the problem. Why did it have to die in the first place?

Because PVE'ers love time>skill. Bigger numbers, higher levels, titles. I heard that skill>time spent is much more relevant in PvP, something which the overall playerbase doesn't do.

aapo · Jun 02, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Because PVE'ers love time>skill. Bigger numbers, higher levels, titles. I heard that skill>time spent is much more relevant in PvP, something which the overall playerbase doesn't do.

- True. Better question: Why in the fricking hell did ANET couple everything together? PvE characters with imbalanced gear coming to PvP grounds. PvE balanced to suit minority PvP needs. Even monsters using the same neatly balanced PvP skills with little effect, because professions are made to work together as a team. Then after three years ANET finally realizes that it doesn't work, so their best shot is to überbuff a couple of skills here and there for PvE. Yep, I'm going back to Diablo II. At least the game rewards me for slaying waves of monsters.

Abedeus · Jun 02, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Yep, I'm going back to Diablo II. At least the game rewards me for slaying waves of monsters.

Isn't it a bit scary when hack'n'slash is more skill > time than GW?

Bryant Again · Jun 02, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

The monthly fees Blizzard charges gives them the edge, they can afford more staff and there for they can work on more content at diffrent levels.

In Guild Wars, all players can see all of the content of the game. If you want to experience DoA, you can turn it to normal mode. If you want to see FoW, it just takes a moderate amount of competance.

I don't understand why, for better or worse, ANet decided to include inexperienced and - more importantly - impatient players into seeing the Hard Mode variant of all the areas.

It's not a simple "economics 101" situation, since Blizzard is not handing every player the end game raids, and in fact most don't even care about them - and it is still growing ever popular. So why do (or why does it seem like) so many Guild Wars players care so much about the hardest end game of the areas? I mean I can understand WoW not having to "cater to the impatient+inexperienced" due to the "amount of content it has", but honestly? There isn't a whole lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

...And people tend to stay with a game when they have to keep a subscription going or lose the account.

This I can partly understand, but it doesn't change the fact of so few having so little interest in the raid endgame.

zwei2stein · Jun 02, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In Guild Wars, all players can see all of the content of the game. If you want to experience DoA, you can turn it to normal mode. If you want to see FoW, it just takes a moderate amount of competance.

I don't understand why, for better or worse, ANet decided to include inexperienced and - more importantly - impatient players into seeing the Hard Mode variant of all the areas.

It's not a simple "economics 101" situation, since Blizzard is not handing every player the end game raids, and in fact most don't even care about them - and it is still growing ever popular. So why do (or why does it seem like) so many Guild Wars players care so much about the hardest end game of the areas? I mean I can understand WoW not having to "cater to the impatient+inexperienced" due to the "amount of content it has", but honestly? There isn't a whole lot.

This I can partly understand, but it doesn't change the fact of so few having so little interest in the raid endgame.

There is one other thing: How spaced content is for casuall/lazy/bad player.

Take guildwars first: There is nothing that prevents player from bypasing whole areas and ignoring nonprimary quests once he hits L20. Quest rewards are pointless and players dont care about quest lore at all.

Result? Players ignore MAJORITY of (cool) content. Its of no value to them, anything you get from quests is obtainable by farming - and much faster. (It used to be different with prohecies skill rewards and quirky items with weird stats. Gwen done one thing actually right and fixed it with actually worthy stuff like lockpicks, crafting materials and (pve) skills as quest rewards.)

So people skip normal content (because they have no reason to do it) and reach hardcore-ish content very soon and are motivated to do it because it is where all the worthy stuff like loot and titles is.

In WoW there is a bit less content for character (leaving out all those areas you outlevel before you reach em.) but players are required to to throught nearly all of it and it takes a lot of time.

Result? Player are busy and grinding their kill 50 pig-like-creatures quests. They dont reach hardcore content anytime soon and by time they do they either burn out and quit, get altitis or actually become hardcore.

---

Simple:

Give people choice of killing rats and dragons, they are gonna go dragon hunting.

In Gw they got that choice.

In WoW they dont.

aapo · Jun 02, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Isn't it a bit scary when hack'n'slash is more skill > time than GW?

- I don't know about skill, but the game is fun. People should consider picking up Chess or Go for intellectual pursuit, not computer games with selling point on graphics and adventure. I'm serious. Trying to stretch engines like GW's to cater all kinds of audiences just won't work in the long run. GW's PvP is fun, but some people are taking it way too seriously. GW2 will be sold as "free to play MMO", because that's where the money is. ANET can't compete with real PvP games without sacrificing much of playerbase.

Longasc · Jun 02, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

If we want to see the kind of dumbed down game design that I fear for GW2, just play Age of Conan.

It is piss easy, you cannot die. Pull all mobs, you will survive. The only thing that can kill you are actually other players.

Once people are through the content, have seen all the different models and textures, they will be bored to hell. Which is a pity, as Hyboria has such a great atmosphere.

But as we got told: FUN is overpowered skills, mobs dropping like flies and "great atmosphere".

A MMO needs more to keep people interested over more than one month than that. This is shortsighted design, and I hope ANet does not deliver us something that looks cool but has no lasting value at all.

Snow Bunny · Jun 02, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Economics 101.
The monthly fees Blizzard charges gives them the edge, they can afford more staff and there for they can work on more content at diffrent levels.
And people tend to stay with a game when they have to keep a subscription going or lose the account.
As I said Economics 101.

Judging by your analogy, I doubt you a. took economics 101 b. took it and did well/understood it.
If Anet developed good content and kept the playerbase engaged, they'd sell more units, which would in turn compensate for the increased costs of producing better content. OSHIT - ECONOMICS 101 - OPPORTUNITY COSTS. Anet judged that the opportunity costs of producing more/better content outweighed the income from sales, and they judged wrong, judging by my dead f-list. If Anet produced a mini-expansion every several months with great content, assured I'd shovel out cash for that. They gambled on their marketing, and to their demise.

Hopefully they improve upon this with GW2, as well as improve on their Community Relations. Having your CR deny the existence of something confirmed by dozens of players is always GREAT FOR YOUR IMAGE.

ReZDoGG · Jun 02, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

They cater to inexperienced people, because the are INEXPERIENCED! They don't want to make things hard to the point where people are going to give up on the game, they want people to beable to have a fun and beable to make money... The new Pve/Pvp skill balance system I thought was something they should have had since beginning, alot of skills changes for pvp hurt pve big time, and most of us experienced that and it disappointed us big time. I also thought Ursan was a good thing in the game, as it gives people a chance to get into a group to go places they wouldn't normally go, like UW/FoW. Its fun, its easy, and if you don't like it, cry somewheres else or play another game... simple as that. But I do understand that people without EoTN or high Ursan rank won't get into UW/Fow groups, but that only means they will have to work on their rank, or get EoTN for their own benefit. Ursan groups makes UW/Fow more successful than ever, instead of having people in the group leave alot quicker than they do now, just because of alittle difficulty they might encounter... There we way more "giver uppers" before Ursan, than there is now. I like it, but I can't speak for those who don't have EoTN or too lazy to level up their Rank. All in all, Guildwars/Anet does what they do best for the players, if they only catered to "experienced" players, than inexperienced players won't get anywheres fast. Experienced players should be all set with any change in the game, if you can't handle certain things, than maybe think about quitting the game? And another thing, Guildwars doesn't compare/base their own gameplan to WoW, I personally think WoW is a game of the past and its for people that have too much time on their hands. Guildwars will continue to be one of the great games, especially when Gw2 comes out. Alot of newbie WoW fans will most likely leave and go to Gw2 cause of no monthly fees, popularity, meeting their expectations/needs, and mainly just because its going to be great overall, not to mention it will be a new game... not something that has the same crappy graphics or cartoonish type look for more than a few years now. WoW does have alot more players, but thats only because WoW is alot older than GW, and it was the best in its own days. But now, people are going to start moving into the future... except for those hardcore WoW players that spent the last 2-5 years spending money and time to get the best experience possible in WoW, and won't leave WoW because of everything they invested into the game. Good thing about Guildwars, it allows you to play other games and enjoy them, and come back anytime you want... and not worry about wasting money on it, as you have an account for life of GW.

Anything that Anet has been doing, has nothing to do with "dumbing down" the game, they are just doing things they should have done awhile ago to improve the pve and pvp experience at the same time, instead of having one or the other effect both types of gameplay when they should of been seperate to begin with. Anet continues to do the best for the game, and I thank them for that. They put alot of time and effort to keep us playing and keep us interested by giving us more stuff to do. I honestly don't have much complaints about the PvE aspect of the game, and I been doin nothing but PvE for the past 2 and half years. The game is GREAT, and it will continue to be GREAT. Of course there are those very few things that could be fixed or improved, but thats all just work in progress as they listen to their fans/customers/players.

We can expect great things to happen in GW2 regardless, and GW1 will still continue to leave on no matter what... they said themselves they will not leave GW1 behind just because of GW2, they will continue to work on GW1. Of course they will have teams to work on both projects at the same time, since they will have enough success to beable to hire all the people they need to meet their goals. The new Pve/Pvp skill balance system was one the best things they ever did for the game, now there is no more complaints about "nerfs" for pve players just because something is effecting pvp. Enough said I guess, Great things and positive thoughts is all we need. ANet caters to us all!

Winch · Jun 02, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

ANET is trying to make the game more addictive to new players. What I mean is, that I haven't played the game that much in the beginning, until I realized how the game really works. So I played 1 hour a day. Now, I enjoy the game, cuz I know how to do well, what (for example) a ranger, is good for and capable of. (at first I thought it was meant to be a dmg dealing char...as it was in other mmos) nowadays I'm on around 3-4 hours, and clearly enjoy the game without ursan or so.

As for GW2: There are people who are waiting for GW2 to be the real GW MMO, and there are those who are waiting for it cuz of curiosity. The newcomers eventually want to play GW2, and ANet decided to let them earn achievements easier. This may be irritating for the rest of us, but we should see, that there are skillful players among those who play ursan in pve (because its impossible to get into PUGs and maybe the rest of his/her guild does only pvp.), and are able to play PVP well (even better than us) without it. They may despise ursan too, but they just can't get to elite areas to see them, or beat them, cuz the veterans have already beaten them a dozen times, and they dont care. And there are lots of people, who recenty bought or are going to buy GW. They just cant afford to learn the hard way, as we did once, cuz of the lack of time BUT if they want to, they still can try it. That depends on the player...

The rewards in GW2 should be calculated from the account age AND achievements.

ogre_jd · Jun 03, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Take guildwars first: There is nothing that prevents player from bypasing whole areas and ignoring nonprimary quests once he hits L20. Quest rewards are pointless and players dont care about quest lore at all.

Players here don't care about the 'lore' (mainly because most have been through it so many times), but I'll bet you'll find that most people, especially on their first couple of times through, are reading every word and picking up every quest they can find (remember, not everyone searches the wikis to find quest location lists).

As for bypassing whole areas, a problem mainly confined to Prophecies, that could easily (and should, IMHO) be fixed - in Prophecies, that can be easily solved by flooding the Cursed Land (or the eastern end of Tears of the Fallen) and a big avalanche in Lornar's Pass (the Stone Summit're probably pissed at all these Humans traipsing about their lands and likely would have no trouble causing one). Wouldn't be much work for ANet and would solve a lot of problems.

Adding a few strategically-placed locked gates and making sure you can't do Missions out of order (of course, for foreigners that'd be counted only from D'Allessio Seaboard onwards; Primary Quests would also require the Missions be done first, of course) would probably be a good idea, too....